Also I like the idea of disguising as bits of scenery. It’d be like metal gear solid in your little box. “Oh no they’re looking at me, better stand still.” Of course the sad people that have memorised every rock on a map will have the advantage on these people, also some disguises would be rediculous in some places which makes it fun, know your surroundings and all that, don’t disguise as a rock from dustbowl when you’re playing on well.

Also I love the 3 sentry idea, it’d actually give me something to think about as an engineer, currently engineer is my lazy class, I plonk down a sentry and then either turtle it or get bored and run off looking for people to harass with the shotgun. This would add an element of planning.

I recently died in a similar way playing as a Spy, I was running up to sap a totally unguarded sentry in the tunnel to the right on goldrush one, when a very stupid medic charged in behind me. The sentry shot at him and caught me in the crossfire. Twice.

Grrr.

One question, I’ve never noticed this, but can engineers be hurt by their own sentries? If so a can of spray paint could put a halt to the classic dispenser->engy->sentry sandwich, spray the dispenser and the engy gets caught in the crossfire.

As for disguise kits, I once suggested a ‘scenic disguise kit’ that allowed the spy to disguise himself as various bits of background appropriate scenery, including dispensers and sentries. Not sure if it’d work though.

It’s funny how many ‘suggestions’ people come up with are features from TFC that got cut out, presumably with great deliberation. The Spy, of course, used to have a feign death command.

As for the suicide pill, I’m not sure it’d be much fun to sit there on the ground looking dead for any stretch of time, tactical utility or no. One of the great achievements of that class is making people playing spies actually feel and act like action movie spies. Harrowing intrusions, sudden betrayals, and death-defying escapes are the spy’s lot. Taking incredibly sneaky naps? Not so much.

I’ve oftened wondered about the possibility of a fake suicide pill for the spy. This would allow him to lie prone and play dead while disguised. This would enable him to deviously block enemy cart movement on Goldrush and lie in wait at sentry nests for the engineer to go wandering. For better or worse this would lead to spy-checking corpses. I guess it depends – when does paranoia stop being fun? Spy checking is already irritating for spies and non-spies alike.

Also the spy should have a radio that lets him call in airstrikes which would make all pyros and engies on the map explode instantly.

… ‘scool.

I think functionally it’s perhaps not as excitingly different as the chain-sapper – I can picture it being really satisfying to feel like you’re fucking up a whole field of turrets from where you stand – but it makes up for that by being quite a graspable concept: paint their Sentries! lol!

The details of how long it takes to paint and how preventable/repairable it is with Wrenching would be up to testing, I guess. But it would have to be quicker than the Sapper versus one Sentry in range of two others, because it’s useless against one on its own. And it presumably doesn’t disable the Sentry while you’re paintin’.

The EMP grenades, on the other hand, I think could be really cool. I wouldn’t want it to act like a sap and fully disable, though: then you’re stepping on the spy’s toes. Maybe just reduce the rate of fire? I also like that it gives the demo a reason to put away the sticky launcher for a minute and use the tricker-to-aim grenades. But would the inevitable reduced damage be worth it?

On a sapper that makes the gun switch sides, that’s a cool idea, but it actually makes sentries a liability in crucial areas. Can you imagine having a turncoat level three overlooking your last point? The dustruction you’d wreak is totally out of proportion to what you can do with a normal sapper.

I think you might be on to something, though. How about instead of having the building actually switch sides and start killing people, it switches COLORS — meaning its behavior stays the same, but any sentry in the area turns around and starts shooting at it? Like the sapper, this focuses the damage on a single building, and it doesn’t turn the sentry into a threat to its own team. Well… mostly. You could gank a pesky engineer with his own gun by paintjobbing the dispenser behind him, and it offers a spectacular way to reduce the viability of multi-sentry nests. Slap on a cooldown meter and I think we’ve got a really fun unlockable.

http://manvshorse.wordpress.com/

I’d repeat it here but a) it’s really long and b) then I wouldn’t be able to plug quite so shamelessly.

On the subject of strong sentry nests and crouching engies, how’s this for a simple solution:

When a sentry dies, it does so with an almighty bang.

While this doesn’t actually make them any easier to kill, it discourages clustering because one lucky sap or shot could suddenly blow the whole bunch at once and collapse your defence. Something acheivable if the attackers focus on a single one.

Incidentally, I have a new favourite way to deal with babysitter engies. Having never been fast enough to sap and stab myself I simply recruit a second spy and attack both engie and sentry at once, easy pickings.

I had an idea today too, by looking at it (for some reason) from an RTS/Diablo perspective. The fundamental problem here is clumped up stuff, more specifically clumped up stuff distibuted across players so any clump penalty feels weird and unfair. In games, there are two usual design solutions for situations where clumped up stuff is annoying. The first is AoEs, especially splashy explosions. We already have lots of those, and at least according to the host of the post (with the most) they’re not solving it.

Solution #2, often overlooked, is Chain Lighting in one of its various guises. Thus, I humbly present two words: Chain Sapper. If you want a light nerf, you could make it a Spy unlock. If, as I do, you consider a more fundamental change necessary you could patch it into the basic Sapper.

It’s easy to think that these two solutions are the same, but the fundamental difference comes in what and where you have to hit. With AoE you have to be able to see or blindly hit a point that splashes everything; with chain anything, you only have to hit one of the enemies. This also has interesting implications for Dispenser placement.

It would still be suicide to Sap a big nest, but I think that’s fair; a multi-Sentry nest may require little skill to set up, but it’s still a big investment and it should still be scary. All we need is to shift a little bit of that fright back onto the defending side, increasing everyone’s fun. By (re)introducing a second threat axis and pushing everyone apart a little, I think a Chain Sapper could do that.

As well as allowing nubs and permanubs to hilariously ruin clansmen’s best laid plans by plunking down buildings in stupid places.

Alternatively, you could add an EMP effect to Demo grenades; I usually group EMP with Chain Lightning. Demoman would become even more of a go-to guy, but Sentry-killing is supposed to be his big role…Maybe if it was short-lived he would still require coordination with someone else.

We don’t want to screw around much with the engi’s play style, so we’ve got to keep this focused on RTS-style placement and supply concerns. But we have to give the engi a more complex problem than “where do I put my three buildings?” (The irony-quotable “question” of where to put the TP entrance is so naw-durr obvious that it doesn’t count.) Especially considering that deploying the dispenser and the sentry as a single unit is not only the easiest but often the correct answer, we need to give the engi brain more to chew on. We need something newbs can screw up but still engage with, something tactically deep enough for even experts to mull over, and please something a pro soldier can’t solve by blasting a shotty at the ground and typing “sg there = we win.” At the same time we want to make something conquerable by nubs but still potent against high-level players.

The simple answer to this conundrum is GOD STRIKE ME DOWN IT’S UNSOLVABLE.

As no smiting is in evidence, I’m obliged to at least try.

THE TRIPLE SENTRY
The standard sentry is a single gun which engineers can upgrade through three levels of potency. The starter gun does decent damage within its limited range, but fires slowly and can’t take much enemy fire. Level 2 fires faster, has more range, takes more damage, and acquires a vicious knockback. Level 3 gets rockets and even more armor and range.

For the engi unlock, we split these stages into three different guns: the sentry, the knockback gun, and the rocket sentry. (We could give them cheesy names for color, like maybe the knockback gun is the bucking bronco?) Each of these guns has armor and range comparable to the level 1. The regular sentry is the regular starter gun, perhaps with enhanced damage if it seems too gimpy in playtesting. The knockback gun does less damage but sports the same kick as a level 3. The rocket gun does the most damage, but fires the slowest and is subject to the limitations of rockets, those being the possibility of missing and susceptibility to airblast reflection. The damage of all three guns firing in tandem whould be equivalent to a single level 3. It would also be interesting to playtest allowing the guns to share each other’s range: line of sight permitting, anything being fired upon by one gun will be detected by the others.

I like this because it opens up whole new vistas of engi strategy. Clustering the guns is no longer a good option, because the knockback gun will put enemies out of the nest’s quite limited range. Instead, you can use the knockback gun to kick enemies into the other guns’ killzone, or tailor each gun’s effect to a particular area, or scatter the guns unpredictably so that enemies can’t get a good reading on your position. Keeping all the guns in good repair and supplied with ammo now requires tactical mobility rather than the squatting engis are used to. It’s not so complicated that newbies can’t understand it, but it is complicated enough that they won’t be able to use it as effectively as experienced players. Even though the dispenser can still sit next to a gun, you now have a few choices of defended positions for it.

Splitting up the guns also means tackling engi nests is no longer an all-or-nothing proposition: you can damage and reduce his capability without having to completely defeat him. Reduced armor means it’s really unlikely that an engi will ever come out of an attack unscathed: some of his guns are going to fall, presenting him with a steadier stream of tactical challenges.

There are major problems here, too. Other than the element of surprise, the triple-sentry doesn’t gain much against experienced players. Because it’s an unlock rather than a rebalance, it also doesn’t prevent engis from doing exactly what they’re doing now. It requires the creation of a lot of art assets, and is going to complicate the construct/demolish UI considerably. So I’m not saying this is ideal, I’m just trying to throw something out there.

At the end of the day, I think nerfing stickies’ direct-fire capabilities will temper the deadliness of high-level demomen. But for an engi rebalances, I want to see the creation of a skill curve rather than an across-the-board nerf or boost.

And that’s assuming they don’t have a Pyro with them.

Maybe you should find some better pubs, mate.

You probably know, Pentadact, but for the record they have a documentary, Gigantic: A Tale of Two Johns. It has the This American Life folks in it, among many others. Selling point!

But the main problem with it, is that, IT ISN’T HARD TO USE!
It’s not a expert tactic! You just fire a sticky in their general direction and hammer down on the right mouse button until it explodes!

I mean, if you call having to judge movement as a hard tactic, then soldier and sniper both have “difficult to use” weaponry. And what the fudge do you mean a low clip size? His sticky launcher has 8 STICKIES. 8! He can keep popping them off at you, and his pipe bomb launcher has the exact same amount of ammo as the soldier.

Direct combat is possible but difficult as a demoman. Pyros already have such an advantage against demomen (demomen lack good mid-range attacks, and the pyro can reflect all his ranged attacks) it’s ridiculous. Add in the low clip size and long reload times of the demoman and it’s clear that the demoman has its weaknesses (especially against pyros and scouts).

Mid-air detonation of stickies is essential. It’s a difficult technique to master, but an essential part of a *good* demoman’s arsenal. TF2 is a chaotic game but that’s where the fun is. Trying to slow down a class by nerfing an essential, but difficult-to-use weapon is just against the game’s philosophy. Besides which, midair detonation is not a cure-all technique (it’s mostly useless against sentries, for instance–which I may point out, are the demoman’s primary offensive targets).

I see what you mean about the spikes, but if you’re firing them close enough to you to beat the original time then you will almost certainly get damaged…

Tom says they start glowing when they’re ready to detonate, and my screenshot does show that a mid-air one doesn’t glow like a placed one does. I think the solution is probably just to make them flash brightly for a second as that glow activates, and make a small sound.

2) It has some interesting systems going on, but I’m not sold on some of the mechanics: binary visibility and restrictions on where you can drop down.

3) Yes. I like one or two songs of theirs, I can’t remember which. Open to any specific track recommendations.

Doc: That’s not the worst for Sentry nesting, because the easy to setup spots don’t cover the cap itself, making it vulnerable to dirty Spies like me. But I have seen five-Sentry setups there that we weren’t able to break except by luck. Two on the balcony, one on the stairs, one next to the stairs, and one by the cap. That still leaves seven players to harrass anyone trying to peer round corners to pile on Stickies and to protect the cap-guarding Sentry from Spies. And the crossfire from five Sentries gives those players a huge zone of near-total safety from which to fire.

My point is not that this is a perfect unbeatable defense, it’s that if you’ve got five of the same class on your team and you’re not getting owned, that class needs a change. I’m open to the idea that my change is utterly stupid, but not to ‘leave them as they are’ as an alternative.

I mean, think of the most common place for a multi-sentry — dustbowl 3A leaps to mind. The first spot to go is always the little balcony from the spawn shortcut. The next two are the logpile behind the bunker and the staircase next to the balcony. After that you’ve got the overlook from the bunker. After that, probably another by the point or crammed onto the balcony. Add any more and we’re straining credibility.

People who’ve played this point a lot are probably ALREADY visualizing the exact order they’ll need to take these hypothetical sentries down. It’s all about smart use of cover. And the more engis we’ve got running around, the fewer other classes the offense has to worry about denying them access to the cover spots.

Soldiers would benefit massively from such a Kritz change, and the last thing the game balance needs is for Soldiers working with Medics to be able to have predictable criticals on tap.

My point was that the first Sentry takes friends or dumb luck to set up unharassed. But the second doesn’t. They get exponentially easier to erect the more of them you have. And at the same time, they get exponentially harder to take down the more of them you have. And at the same time, taking one down becomes a less and less useful victory, since your team still can’t break through and the enemy still have a defensive stronghold in which to construct a new one quickly.

Unless Doc’s saying two or three skilled or co-ordinated players can take out an unlimited number of Sentries without taking damage. The enemy only need a couple of mediocre non-Engy players to ensure that’s not possible.

To the other point: something that takes two or three skilled or co-ordinated players to take down is too tough, if you ask me.

~Pixel Knight

I love these suggestions except for the two sentry-related ones. Mostly this is because sentries are already pretty easy for two or three skilled or coordinated players to trump, and nerfing them is only going to make that worse.

Also, I don’t think the heavy is unpopular because of sentries; the mark against him is that he’s slow, and therefore a prime target for spies and snipers. People HATE getting instakilled. In my experience heavies are perfectly capable against sentries. Then again, I am primarily a medic and I have a strong grasp of “run in front,” so maybe my viewpoint is biased.

Sorry I haven’t been keeping up with these, I didn’t expect quite so much feedback.

Tycho: Yeah, I cut this bit to keep the post short, but the plan is that the Kritz charge should drain very slowly over time too, just to undermine any cheap tactics.

roburky: I see what you’re saying about Sentries, but in my experience it’s more common that the uber himself does the Sentry destroying. Even if that’s not the case, it would be now: he’s only got one Sentry’s worth of knockback, so he can be a lot more useful.

I know about the Medic-goes-first uber technique, but clearly not enough people have grasped this mechanic for the Heavy to rely on it. I can count the number of times a Medic’s effectively done it for me on the fingers of one finger.

Sentry Gun: I think you have a vested interest against Sentry-killing buffs, but I’ll adjust my suggestion. The Heavy should be able to move at moving-while-firing speed towards a Sentry while it’s shooting him, but no faster. Bear in mind that Medic or no, he’s still going to get shredded before he reaches it at any decent range.

Tom: Huh. In that case, obviously, the activation visual needs to be a lot clearer, and I’d still like a noise.

Zig: I think Thursday.

Blob: Tycho’s suggestion counter’s this a little, but as ever, the main limitation of the Kritz is that it doesn’t protect its users. Those six Soldiers could get Sentried, sniped and backstabbed just as easily. Suppose the enemy also have six Soldiers, with six regular Medics. With six Ubers ready to go, they’d utterly shred the Kritz brigade.