http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next By Pentadact Thu, 09 Sep 2010 08:05:55 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-55757 Gentlemen, by Tom Francis Sat, 16 May 2009 14:34:33 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-55757 [...] Team Fortress 2 update would be the Spy’s unlockable weapons back in September last year, I said the prospect filled me with dread. Now that they’ve ambushed us with info on two of his new tools, and the whole thing is much [...] http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-36689 minespatch Thu, 09 Oct 2008 06:13:42 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-36689 @Whomper: Where did you first hear about the plumber class?
Where did you first hear about the plumber class?]]> http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35955 mr. Brit Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:49:37 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35955 And to be clear the second two songs are Arcade Fire http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35954 mr. Brit Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:48:11 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35954 ^^ totally agree! Regarding music; can I suggest 'the national', some very nice indie rock. Similarly, 'the arcade fire' are undoubtly awesome. 'Apartment story' by the former and 'in the backseat' or 'neighbourhood #2 (laika)'. Brilliant songs worth checking out. :)
Regarding music; can I suggest 'the national', some very nice indie rock. Similarly, 'the arcade fire' are undoubtly awesome. 'Apartment story' by the former and 'in the backseat' or 'neighbourhood #2 (laika)'. Brilliant songs worth checking out. :)]]> http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35953 Pentadact Fri, 26 Sep 2008 20:57:05 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35953 I know what you mean. My stance in general, though, is that I love Valve most when they're silly, when they do break a few rules, when they do ruin one thing or another. I like them least when they make sensible, reasonable decisions. I like them most when they replace a shotgun with a sandwich. I like them least when they replace a minigun with a minigun that does slightly less damage but slows people slightly. With the Spy in particular, I'll be so sad if we get a silenced pistol, a sapper with tweaked values, a longer cloak. It's not worth fucking with the game's fundamentals to make slight tweaks, if you're going to be spannering around in there, I want to see huge, crazy, hilarious changes. I think unlocks should be about keeping the game fresh, and patches should be about redressing the balance. Er, most of that isn't aimed at you, of course, since you never suggested all changes should be small and sensible. I'm just trying to articulate why, despite agreeing with you, I think Dante's suggestion would be worth it.
I like them most when they replace a shotgun with a sandwich. I like them least when they replace a minigun with a minigun that does slightly less damage but slows people slightly.

With the Spy in particular, I'll be so sad if we get a silenced pistol, a sapper with tweaked values, a longer cloak. It's not worth fucking with the game's fundamentals to make slight tweaks, if you're going to be spannering around in there, I want to see huge, crazy, hilarious changes. I think unlocks should be about keeping the game fresh, and patches should be about redressing the balance.

Er, most of that isn't aimed at you, of course, since you never suggested all changes should be small and sensible. I'm just trying to articulate why, despite agreeing with you, I think Dante's suggestion would be worth it.]]> http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35947 Jason L Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:42:46 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35947 Letting the Spy disguise as a nonhuman object feels like too much to me. A stabbing dispenser is funny, but a moving dispenser is just...sad. Too videogamey. Yes, I'm aware I'm talking about a world where rocket-jumping happens. http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35940 Azzen Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:15:32 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35940 Only testing will tell, I guess. http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35917 Dante Fri, 26 Sep 2008 09:27:46 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35917 It's an interesting piece of balance. I imagine the scenic disguise kit would offer both background items and 'active' items. A background item would be easily overlooked, but might stick out if placed if it's in a different place from how people remember it. Whereas 'active' items like dispensers could theoretically be anywhere, but are more likely to get people thinking about them rather than dismissing them out of hand. Believe me, the first time an engineer gets stabbed by his own dispenser will make it all worthwhile.
Believe me, the first time an engineer gets stabbed by his own dispenser will make it all worthwhile.]]> http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35887 Azzen Thu, 25 Sep 2008 23:22:18 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35887 Azzen: @Dante: Yes, People are too jittery for that...But what about a tree? They don't move. Dispensers don't move either. And people would rarely turn their back to dispensers once they know that the spy can disguise as objects. It is my humble opinion that once people know that objects can be spies, they will start to rigorously spy-check the objects because they happen to be very easy to spy-check.
It is my humble opinion that once people know that objects can be spies, they will start to rigorously spy-check the objects because they happen to be very easy to spy-check.]]> http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35842 Dante Thu, 25 Sep 2008 08:38:55 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35842 Azzen - I always thought it would be the other way around myself. Not spy checking something doesn't mean you've thought about it and dismissed the idea, people are too jittery for that, it means you've run along without thinking about it because the spy has managed to blend into the background. All too easy if you ARE the background. Personally I think people, even once they're aware, would spy check scenery much less than people. Even once they're away of the spy's ability a dispenser is less likely to flag 'danger' than a person. The flipside of this is that a scenic disguised spy moving while people can see is incredibly obvious, he might as well hold up a giant neon sign announcing his presence.
Personally I think people, even once they're aware, would spy check scenery much less than people. Even once they're away of the spy's ability a dispenser is less likely to flag 'danger' than a person.

The flipside of this is that a scenic disguised spy moving while people can see is incredibly obvious, he might as well hold up a giant neon sign announcing his presence.]]> http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35830 Azzen Thu, 25 Sep 2008 03:53:55 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35830 Pentadact: Well, I mean, the stuff like the scenic disguise kit might not work as well as the regular disguise kit. People might not as easily spy-check a living, breathing supposed teammate, but it's probably going to occur a lot that they are to spy-check a non-moving dispenser or crate. It would be like the cardboard boxes in Metal Gear. Except there are pyros and heavies around. http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35784 DoctorDisaster Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:43:28 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35784 I just realized I missed a golden opportunity for a joke about doctors overreacting to second-hand smoke. Damn. http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35783 DoctorDisaster Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:41:24 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35783 That's true about the smoke. I'm not bad enough that I'll shoot at my own flag carrier (except of course with the glowing tendril of love), but I'll pump full clips of needles into anything that has the gall to start smoking in my immediate vicinity. As for shooting removing the disguise, my concern is that someone yelling "spy!" will cause the disguised one to start spychecking too, ruining the fun even if they don't realize what's going on. I also think letting people know they've been force-disguised would be an important learning tool for players who aren't familiar with the mechanic. Otherwise all too many people are going to live through a scenario where everyone around them starts shooting, so they start shooting too, then everyone stops shooting and the disguise victim has no idea what just happened.
As for shooting removing the disguise, my concern is that someone yelling "spy!" will cause the disguised one to start spychecking too, ruining the fun even if they don't realize what's going on. I also think letting people know they've been force-disguised would be an important learning tool for players who aren't familiar with the mechanic. Otherwise all too many people are going to live through a scenario where everyone around them starts shooting, so they start shooting too, then everyone stops shooting and the disguise victim has no idea what just happened.]]> http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35672 Dante Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:28:26 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35672 You're definitely right Pentadact, logic and reasoning take a back seat where spy paranoia is involved. Even more than the intelligence thing your own team are always furiously checking you when you're a spy disguised as someone else, despite the fact that I'm fairly sure that there's no way to disguise yourself as a masked spy. http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35614 Pentadact Mon, 22 Sep 2008 17:41:48 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35614 Azzen - I don't think enemies being aware of a Spy's abilities necessarily means they'll see through them: we all know he can disguise, but it doesn't mean we always spot disguised Spies. These abilities all hinge on cases where the illusion is indistinguishable from the reality until further investigation. Dante - lol. Yep, I've always wanted a Spy ability that involves a badly stenciled cardboard box. I think he should simply wear it on his head, though.
Dante - lol. Yep, I've always wanted a Spy ability that involves a badly stenciled cardboard box. I think he should simply wear it on his head, though.]]> http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35613 Pentadact Mon, 22 Sep 2008 17:39:14 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35613 1. I did think of a cloak-gun at first, since it's more common to see disguised Spies cloak than undisguise. But I wanted that moment where all their team-mates are shooting the hell out of them and they can't work out why. I hadn't considered actually making it disable their weapon, though - that's an interesting idea for a separate weapon. My instinctive reaction is that it's too powerful - it effectively lets the Spy survive any one-on-one encounter long enough to get back to his team-mates, assuming he can move while using it. Cloak only lets him do that if he can escape their fire and deceive them about which direction he's gone in. But if it were to replace cloak mode entirely - that's an interesting decision. Although I worry that would come down to just how many players there are on the server - small pop, cloak gun; large pop, vanilla cloak. 2. I reckoned the puff of smoke just screams suspicion regardless, and not many players have the wherewithall to reason out which way the colours changed and whether that makes sense. If you've ever noticed how furiously a team spy-checks their own chap when he's carrying the enemy intelligence - pretty much the only guy on the battlefield who cannot possibly be a Spy - I'm hoping that's indicative of the confusion this would incite. If not, I like your idea of making them fire their pistol. I like even more the idea of a gun which, when you click fire, causes no visible action on your part, but causes your target to turn into you, face you, and fire a gun like yours directly at you. But purely for the pleasing symmetry - obviously that would be fraught in coding and player-experience terms. 3. I was thinking the effect would be visible to everyone but the accused, so they only know they've been dressed-up when their teammates start shooting them more than normal. So I was going to let them shed the disguise by firing, so that it's only really useful when you're behind enemy lines. That makes it sound pretty weak, but the purpose is not to let the Spy genuinely confer all suspicion onto a real player, just to create a moment's bafflement in which he can go unnoticed. The larger issue, of course, is that this kind of confusion might turn out to just be irritating as hell to everyone involved.
I hadn't considered actually making it disable their weapon, though - that's an interesting idea for a separate weapon. My instinctive reaction is that it's too powerful - it effectively lets the Spy survive any one-on-one encounter long enough to get back to his team-mates, assuming he can move while using it. Cloak only lets him do that if he can escape their fire and deceive them about which direction he's gone in.

But if it were to replace cloak mode entirely - that's an interesting decision. Although I worry that would come down to just how many players there are on the server - small pop, cloak gun; large pop, vanilla cloak.

2. I reckoned the puff of smoke just screams suspicion regardless, and not many players have the wherewithall to reason out which way the colours changed and whether that makes sense. If you've ever noticed how furiously a team spy-checks their own chap when he's carrying the enemy intelligence - pretty much the only guy on the battlefield who cannot possibly be a Spy - I'm hoping that's indicative of the confusion this would incite.

If not, I like your idea of making them fire their pistol. I like even more the idea of a gun which, when you click fire, causes no visible action on your part, but causes your target to turn into you, face you, and fire a gun like yours directly at you. But purely for the pleasing symmetry - obviously that would be fraught in coding and player-experience terms.

3. I was thinking the effect would be visible to everyone but the accused, so they only know they've been dressed-up when their teammates start shooting them more than normal. So I was going to let them shed the disguise by firing, so that it's only really useful when you're behind enemy lines. That makes it sound pretty weak, but the purpose is not to let the Spy genuinely confer all suspicion onto a real player, just to create a moment's bafflement in which he can go unnoticed.

The larger issue, of course, is that this kind of confusion might turn out to just be irritating as hell to everyone involved.]]> http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35610 DoctorDisaster Mon, 22 Sep 2008 17:06:57 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35610 Some variations and elaborations on the j'accuser for you all to consider: 1. What if instead of disguising the enemy, you cloak him? You'd have to use this carefully, because it would burn your cloak power rather than ammo, but it would have the added benefit of disabling one enemy's weapon. For added fun, make it a beam you have to keep trained on your target -- who is, of course, invisible. The slight fade-ins as you struggle to keep a bead on him would look pretty convincing to spy-checkers. You'd have to limit it to one cloaked target at a time, though, to prevent the spy from sweeping a rank of enemies and disabling all their guns for a few moments. Drawback: enemy medics are NOT going to be happy if you cloak them right before an uber. 2. Back to the disguise gun: it occurs to me that a decloaking spy does not have a puff of smoke. While I love the puff of smoke, it might be more sensible to have the decoy character switch to the disguise instantly and without effects, just like a normal spy. For bonus points, the j'accuser should sound exactly like the normal revolver, so everyone assumes the "spy" has started firing. Maybe work the smoke in when the forced disguise wears off. 3. How to handle weapons when imposing a disguise on another character? You can disable their guns, like with the uCloak I suggested above, but it strikes me that a spy who decloaks but then stops shooting isn't very convincing. A spy shooting rockets around is even worse. So I suggest that we allow the disguised one to shoot, but no matter the weapon used, render its attacks as revolver shots. This leads inevitably to hilarity. Imagine a rocket-jumping soldier who looks like a revolver-jumping spy. Or an enemy spy who ubers himself and your heavy by shooting him in the back.
1. What if instead of disguising the enemy, you cloak him? You'd have to use this carefully, because it would burn your cloak power rather than ammo, but it would have the added benefit of disabling one enemy's weapon. For added fun, make it a beam you have to keep trained on your target -- who is, of course, invisible. The slight fade-ins as you struggle to keep a bead on him would look pretty convincing to spy-checkers. You'd have to limit it to one cloaked target at a time, though, to prevent the spy from sweeping a rank of enemies and disabling all their guns for a few moments. Drawback: enemy medics are NOT going to be happy if you cloak them right before an uber.

2. Back to the disguise gun: it occurs to me that a decloaking spy does not have a puff of smoke. While I love the puff of smoke, it might be more sensible to have the decoy character switch to the disguise instantly and without effects, just like a normal spy. For bonus points, the j'accuser should sound exactly like the normal revolver, so everyone assumes the "spy" has started firing. Maybe work the smoke in when the forced disguise wears off.

3. How to handle weapons when imposing a disguise on another character? You can disable their guns, like with the uCloak I suggested above, but it strikes me that a spy who decloaks but then stops shooting isn't very convincing. A spy shooting rockets around is even worse. So I suggest that we allow the disguised one to shoot, but no matter the weapon used, render its attacks as revolver shots. This leads inevitably to hilarity. Imagine a rocket-jumping soldier who looks like a revolver-jumping spy. Or an enemy spy who ubers himself and your heavy by shooting him in the back.]]> http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35575 Dante Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:48:45 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35575 Pentadact: Exactly, you can move while disguised as a dispenser if you want, it just might not be a good idea. Did I mention the Spies teamates see him hiding in a box painted to look like a dispenser? Either that or holding up a sign saying 'free health here'.
Did I mention the Spies teamates see him hiding in a box painted to look like a dispenser? Either that or holding up a sign saying 'free health here'.]]> http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35556 Azzen Mon, 22 Sep 2008 00:45:12 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35556 I think the weakness with some of the ideas presented here is that people will see them coming. Decoys work when the enemy has no idea, but when every player in the game gets news that the spy can now do that, the effect is compromised. Still, these are interesting. And, to add to the scenic disguise kit, maybe Valve can randomize some pieces of scenery like boxes and crates every time a map loads?
Still, these are interesting. And, to add to the scenic disguise kit, maybe Valve can randomize some pieces of scenery like boxes and crates every time a map loads?]]> http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35503 The_Danish Sun, 21 Sep 2008 06:57:06 +0000 http://www.pentadact.com/index.php/2008-09-18-sounds-like-the-spy-update-is-next#comment-35503 Drawing from the confusion-inducing crit rocket, I think it would be more balanced and funnier if perhaps the Spy's voice commands changed while cloaked, to mimic sounds of weapons and things like that. Perhaps trade the Sapper in for a whole sound/effects board, so you can run close to a Heavy with a Medic, make the distinctive sound of a player catching fire, and backstab the Heavy when he turns to check. Perhaps the sound of a crit rocket followed by an explosion around the corner, causing an Engineer to leave his Sentry so a teammate could destroy it easily. The J'Accusinator could be one of its effects!