Comments on: Tweak Fortress

By: The Prime Minister Of Sinister, by Tom Francis

The Prime Minister Of Sinister, by Tom Francis — Sat, 23 May 2009 01:21:38 +0000

[...] an unlock that let me use them in reverse: jaunt from the exit to the entrance. Speaking of which, Doctor Disaster’s Spurious Sentry Spraypaint is still better than anything Valve came up with for the [...]

By: Ixtab

Ixtab — Thu, 18 Sep 2008 21:51:21 +0000

I like the spray paint idea, it could be beautifully simple to understand like the paper mask, and funny and usefull enough to encourage people to actually use it. The fact that it's useless against a single sentry means it's a viable trade-off for the normal sapper. Also I like the idea of disguising as bits of scenery. It'd be like metal gear solid in your little box. "Oh no they're looking at me, better stand still." Of course the sad people that have memorised every rock on a map will have the advantage on these people, also some disguises would be rediculous in some places which makes it fun, know your surroundings and all that, don't disguise as a rock from dustbowl when you're playing on well. Also I love the 3 sentry idea, it'd actually give me something to think about as an engineer, currently engineer is my lazy class, I plonk down a sentry and then either turtle it or get bored and run off looking for people to harass with the shotgun. This would add an element of planning.

By: J-Man

J-Man — Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:02:21 +0000

Just did a post on the sentry with a bunch of really, really crap ideas. You have been warned of the effects of low blood sugar:
http://rustbowl.word... ...press.com/

By: Dante

Dante — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:04:00 +0000

That must take balls of steel :D

I recently died in a similar way playing as a Spy, I was running up to sap a totally unguarded sentry in the tunnel to the right on goldrush one, when a very stupid medic charged in behind me. The sentry shot at him and caught me in the crossfire. Twice.

Grrr.

By: Pentadact

Pentadact — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:32:17 +0000

Yep, Engies can be shot and killed by their own Sentries. As a Spy, you can sometimes kill Engies just by revealing yourself when they're between you and their Sentry - though it's wise to have some cover close by.

By: Dante

Dante — Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:11:47 +0000

Yeah, spray painting people clearly gives it an anti-personnel function, which wouldn't make sense for a sapper replacement. Plus you don't want to create a situation where a poor engy can seriously hurt his own team. Taking out other sentries/buildings is enough.

One question, I've never noticed this, but can engineers be hurt by their own sentries? If so a can of spray paint could put a halt to the classic dispenser->engy->sentry sandwich, spray the dispenser and the engy gets caught in the crossfire.

As for disguise kits, I once suggested a 'scenic disguise kit' that allowed the spy to disguise himself as various bits of background appropriate scenery, including dispensers and sentries. Not sure if it'd work though.

By: DoctorDisaster

DoctorDisaster — Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:43:50 +0000

I thought I'd heard that somewhere! But I didn't want to go out on a limb -- I already get enough "you never played TFC!?" grief from my clanmates.

By: Jason L

Jason L — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:25:32 +0000

I agree. It's fine, spraypainting buildings is nigh-hilarious while solving the problem, which is good enough for me. It's funny how many 'suggestions' people come up with are features from TFC that got cut out, presumably with great deliberation. The Spy, of course, used to have a feign death command.

By: DoctorDisaster

DoctorDisaster — Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:29:18 +0000

Time for me to play party-pooper. I've thought about spraypainting players and, hilarious or not, I just don't think it would work. A major check on the spy, a big boon for the engineer, and a central motivation for the feud between the two is the fact that you have to deal with the sentry before you start backstabbing people. Remove that and I can see spies intentionally leaving sentry nests in place and using them to go all passive-aggressive on the rest of the team. It's a huge motivation not to run engineers at all. Plus spies already have two remarkably powerful anti-personnel weapons at their disposal; the last thing we need is a people-sapper. As for the suicide pill, I'm not sure it'd be much fun to sit there on the ground looking dead for any stretch of time, tactical utility or no. One of the great achievements of that class is making people playing spies actually feel and act like action movie spies. Harrowing intrusions, sudden betrayals, and death-defying escapes are the spy's lot. Taking incredibly sneaky naps? Not so much.

By: Ludo

Ludo — Sun, 10 Aug 2008 10:02:58 +0000

Spray painting buildings = fantastic. Robin Walker must know of this - to the Valvemobile!

I've oftened wondered about the possibility of a fake suicide pill for the spy. This would allow him to lie prone and play dead while disguised. This would enable him to deviously block enemy cart movement on Goldrush and lie in wait at sentry nests for the engineer to go wandering. For better or worse this would lead to spy-checking corpses. I guess it depends - when does paranoia stop being fun? Spy checking is already irritating for spies and non-spies alike.

Also the spy should have a radio that lets him call in airstrikes which would make all pyros and engies on the map explode instantly.

... 'scool.

By: Jason L

Jason L — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 22:56:14 +0000

I imagine that even after Spray PAINt was commonplace, the initial reaction of surrounding players when the sentries suddenly attack in unexpected directions would be a visceral, spinning 'Snrk! Ah! Wha-Whe-Who?!' This weapon isn't even going to be made and it's still making me laugh.

By: DoctorDisaster

DoctorDisaster — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:46:57 +0000

And the only cure for the spraypainted player would be the demo bottle; you can bet that whatever he's drinking might as well be turpentine. God I'm getting carried away with this...

By: DoctorDisaster

DoctorDisaster — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:43:09 +0000

As someone who primarily plays medic, this thought terrifies me. On the other hand, the spraypainted bullseye is absolutely hysterical. So torn!

By: Jason L

Jason L — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:37:25 +0000

No, you stupid past version of me! Spraypainted bullseyes!

By: Jason L

Jason L — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:29:58 +0000

Do you think you should you be able to use it on players? I've imagined the result as a comically crude splotch of colour, enough to fool dumb robots but no problem for people.

By: Jason L

Jason L — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:19:38 +0000

That's hilarious, you have me convinced. I was mostly restricting myself to on-the fly changes that could be rolled out as part of someone else's patch, but that's such an elegant and funny solution to so many problems that it'd be worth waiting for the Spy pack.

By: Pentadact

Pentadact — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 13:44:23 +0000

That I like! It adds risk to only the tactic that feels uncounterable: not necessarily Sentries right next to each other, but Sentries covering each other in an impenetrable network. It could be just a can of spraypaint. And it doesn't really have grief potential: you can only lose your Sentry to other people's by letting it get paint-sapped, which is your fault. It does affect the other Sentries, by distracting them, but with that comes the high risk of getting shredded in the crossfire. I think functionally it's perhaps not as excitingly different as the chain-sapper - I can picture it being really satisfying to feel like you're fucking up a whole field of turrets from where you stand - but it makes up for that by being quite a graspable concept: paint their Sentries! lol! The details of how long it takes to paint and how preventable/repairable it is with Wrenching would be up to testing, I guess. But it would have to be quicker than the Sapper versus one Sentry in range of two others, because it's useless against one on its own. And it presumably doesn't disable the Sentry while you're paintin'.

By: DoctorDisaster

DoctorDisaster — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:34:25 +0000

Jason: Chaining is a cool idea, but implementing it might be a little iffy. It would be really difficult to convey to an engineer just how far apart his buildings would have to be to prevent chaining, and a spy will have trouble knowing if buildings behind him will go down. Matters like which building was originally sapped and whether you have to wrench that one or any of them to fix it would also be difficult to show. And like my idea, it doesn't fully address the problem: far-flung sentries with overlapping fields of fire, which are already less vulnerable to demomen, won't be affected by chaining either.

The EMP grenades, on the other hand, I think could be really cool. I wouldn't want it to act like a sap and fully disable, though: then you're stepping on the spy's toes. Maybe just reduce the rate of fire? I also like that it gives the demo a reason to put away the sticky launcher for a minute and use the tricker-to-aim grenades. But would the inevitable reduced damage be worth it?

On a sapper that makes the gun switch sides, that's a cool idea, but it actually makes sentries a liability in crucial areas. Can you imagine having a turncoat level three overlooking your last point? The dustruction you'd wreak is totally out of proportion to what you can do with a normal sapper.

I think you might be on to something, though. How about instead of having the building actually switch sides and start killing people, it switches COLORS -- meaning its behavior stays the same, but any sentry in the area turns around and starts shooting at it? Like the sapper, this focuses the damage on a single building, and it doesn't turn the sentry into a threat to its own team. Well... mostly. You could gank a pesky engineer with his own gun by paintjobbing the dispenser behind him, and it offers a spectacular way to reduce the viability of multi-sentry nests. Slap on a cooldown meter and I think we've got a really fun unlockable.

By: Pwnzerfaust

Pwnzerfaust — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 08:07:25 +0000

Dante: In this situation, the role of the spy would not be to destroy the sentries, he merely aims to disable them long enough for an ubered pair (or non-ubered teammates, if they're ballsy enough) to rush in. If the entire sentry nest isn't destroyed, at this point it is usually in bad enough shape for a demoman or medic/soldier combo to mop up.

By: Dante

Dante — Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:52:33 +0000

Speaking of unlockables, I just did a big post about them on my own blog.

http://manvshorse.wo... ...press.com/

I'd repeat it here but a) it's really long and b) then I wouldn't be able to plug quite so shamelessly.