Comments on: No-One Drove In New York, There Was Too Much Traffic

By: Pentadact

Pentadact — Mon, 12 May 2008 08:20:50 +0000

I'm afraid it's more serious than we thought, Mr L. You have a rare, non-treatable form of Crazy Hands.

Getting back to the early comments in this epic odyssey, I finally tried those cheats Jonty suggested, and my life is measurably improved. They only disable a couple of irrelevant achievements, one of which I already have, so I'm not being shy about steaming ahead with the plot.

The game is so much more enjoyable when tiny bumps, scrapes and stray shots aren't going to leave you with a health level that might make the rest of the mission uncompletable. I'm only using the health-restore cheat, and in emergencies, the Wanted-level-down one. I think of it as implimenting a much-needed health-regeneration system, and the ability to lean on my 'contacts' as the LCPD to make my problems go away.

You don't have to dial the number each time, but you do have to select the cheat from your phone, which leads to some amusing mid fire-fight phone calls. I only use the cops-B-gone one when they're after me for spurious reasons - last time, it was when gangsters shooting up the car I was hiding behind caused a chain reaction of explosions that presumably killed some nearby peds. This was deemed my fault, and I had to deal with three-star heat in the middle of a huge gangster massacre.

Or when the mission just sucks. I got sick of dying to auto-aim weirdness on Snowstorm, and just told the cops to go home.

By: Jason L

Jason L — Mon, 12 May 2008 04:11:52 +0000

I actually find the 360 controller to be the second least comfortable controller to date, which almost certainly means it's excellent; disregarding the Wii's lateral exploration, my comfort with a controller and its generally accepted ergonomicity display a correlation near -1. So far, Mad Catz knockoffs have always fit me to a T. It's bizarre.

By: Pentadact

Pentadact — Sat, 10 May 2008 08:26:35 +0000

Heh, you mean the part where Tentaculat says "If only this were on the PC"?

These do too often degenerate into fairly transparent cases of "On the contrary, it is clear that the controller I am more accustomed to is superior! Good day!"

But luckily James commenters are the intellectual elite of the internet, so instead we have a lot of reasonable points, an interesting technical insight from someone who evidently has some development nous, and a rigorous semantic policeman.

My post about what I actually love about GTA is gathering dust in my drafts folder, I want to have another bash at multiplayer before I finish it. In other news, I did that stupid train mission last night, and the new batch of jobs I've been given truly drive home the length and breadth of my suckhood.

By: Rob

Rob — Sat, 10 May 2008 05:57:22 +0000

Well I just find it discouraging to debate controllers, since there's usually some ulterior motive. I'm not saying that's going on here, but some of the comments err on the side of 'if only 'twas on PC like the good old days'. When there's never any reason why the two should be competing, each platform's controller is 100% accurate for the games on that system. That's why it's moot. My friend argued this out with me years ago, when I was in the middle of a few years long cycle of FPS games on the original Xbox, and he put it down the fact that the mouse is more intuitively matched to the sense of turning your head left to right. You move your head and your viewpoint changes, just as moving the mouse moves the reticle; on a console you essentially tell your head to move one way at a certain speed until you tell it to stop (by resetting the stick). Anyway, yeah, moot, but interesting. Still, I think the 360 controller is the most ergonomic gaming peripheral we have at this point. It's a long way from Quickjoys and Competition Pros..

By: Jason L

Jason L — Fri, 09 May 2008 21:31:46 +0000

There's not really an argument going on here, but I disagree with your language: a) There is a cap on mouse speed too - on a high-end gaming mouse maybe it's beyond the physically possible, but on a standard Intellimouse Optical or such it just starts stuttering if you move too fast. You have to crank up the multiplier, losing sensitivity. b) What you're describing is the definition of sensitivity in an input device; how many different levels of input can it describe? That determines how small a movement you can get if you set Vmaxdev == Vmaxgame.

By: Tentaculat

Tentaculat — Fri, 09 May 2008 18:44:06 +0000

Yes, that's a far better way of explaining it. You should write for a games magazine.

By: Pentadact

Pentadact — Fri, 09 May 2008 18:05:06 +0000

Interesting stuff. The reason I struggle with it, and this may be repeating what you've just explained, is that the position of my thumbstick determines the movement of my crosshair. I'm used to the position of my mouse determining the position of my crosshair.

By: Tentaculat

Tentaculat — Fri, 09 May 2008 16:43:52 +0000

Jason: Technically, no.

I've not developped professionally for XBox 360, but I am familiar with Microsoft's XNA. When you're designing games that can be played with a mouse and the Xbox 360 controller, you have to take into account the the control differences, and when you're actually developing user input you notice the flaws of the thumb-stick system.

It's not about sensitivity, mouse and thumbstick are two different control methods entirely: An Xbox 360 thumb-stick measures input from -1 to 1 on two axes, with 0,0 being the default position. So if x=0, y=1 then you're pointing the stick as far right as it will go. A mouse just measures vectors every frame, there is no limit.

So what does this mean? Imagine what happens with a thumb-stick when you want to change directions very suddenly? You have to move the stick across the graph.. going from 1 to 0.95, 0.90.... etc all the way to the other side of the graph. You're losing tons of accuracy here.

A mouse is always centered on 0,0, direction change is instant and 100% accurate. OK, you will eventually reach the end of your mouse pad - which is where the superior sensitivity factors in, but changing directions is a different method altogether.

Now it is perfectly possible to develop input to detect change in the thumb-stick direction, but because the thumb stick cannot go past an absolute value of 1 (all the way to the right), the amount of sensitivity lost is simply not worth it.

In short, the thumb stick blows for shooters. You can be very skilled at using a controller, no doubt about that, and I've met some very talented players, but they could not compete against a mouse user in a multiplayer shooter and expect a fair fight.

By: Jason L

Jason L — Fri, 09 May 2008 14:13:30 +0000

Which is to say, it's just about sensitivity?

By: Tentaculat

Tentaculat — Fri, 09 May 2008 12:27:09 +0000

A mouse isn't just about sensitivity, it allows you to move in an infinite number of two-dimensional vectors, a thumb-stick has a very finite number of vectors, especially where velocity is concerned.

By: Rob

Rob — Fri, 09 May 2008 03:02:05 +0000

We'll agree to differ on the storytelling aspects, then. I just particularly dig the GTA series' story content. I like Niko and I think the whole integration into America arc + random bizarre characters like Brucie is entertaining. That 'chase the train' mission is a total rotter. It's completely unforgiving, requires failing at least once to learn the route (or lucky guesswork), and is way too short and pointless to merit inclusion (a really half-arsed French Connection homage). I like that it pops up the VERY HELPFUL 'press B to zoom to train' hint, which basically causes you to crash your car and fail the mission the first time you do it. It's the epitome of your 'go here shoot X' argument, and I wish it wasn't in the game. ..as for the controller, the whole mouse+keyboard argument is totally moot, and always has been. Yes, a mouse offers more sensitivity of movement by construction, but since consoles games are designed for a joypad, the controller is just as accurate. If you have a multiplayer FPS game on a console using a joypad, there is exactly the same modicum of skill amongst the top players as on CounterStrike on the PC. I know, because I've played both obsessively over the years. It's a different way of playing an FPS, but it's no less skilful or textured. I don't think you can blame GTA for being played on a joypad, which for those who are used to it, is just as playable as those who are used to the joys of WSAD (and I would say a joypad is more ergonomic/intuitive/pleasurable, anyway).

By: Cmdt_Carpenter

Cmdt_Carpenter — Thu, 08 May 2008 20:18:46 +0000

My least favorite part of some games with driving (including some GTA games, I believe) is when you start backing up, and the camera swings around to give a nice view of the front of the car, but takes painstakingly long to turn back around when I accelerate in the forward direction. It really pisses me off when I go from backing out of one wall, to slamming into another.

By: Pentadact

Pentadact — Thu, 08 May 2008 19:14:19 +0000

Jason: ha, roBurky and I said the same stuff back then. It sounds like I wrote that shortly after failing a San Andreas mission where you have to protect the dude loading the forklift - it's a very recognisable level of frustration. I guess Rockstar read the post, because they added exactly the feature I ask for: the ability to jump back to the mission-giver, rather than skip from there to the mission. They also agreed that death shouldn't be permanent for allies if it isn't for you, but since you still fail the mission when they're hospitalised in GTA IV, it's not much use. READ BETTER NEXT TIME ROCKSTAR. Cossak: it's been pretty decent for me so far, brightness wise. Lighting has always been a real weak spot of GTA engines - San Andreas is just horrific to look at today. Everything is the same shade of drab, and there's so little shadowing I actually bump into things because I didn't realise they were sticking up. If I were you, I'd crank up the gamma in the options menu even if it makes the daytime scenes more washed out. The sun is sometimes blinding on mine, and I rather like it that way. Dan: I do suck, no denying that. But there are challenges where I suck and think "Goddamn it, I can do this," and challenges where I suck and think "Goddamn it, I'm not doing that." Aiming with a thumbstick that can only register eight directions and has a maximum tracking speed falls under the latter. Alex: I'm partly the same, certainly if GTA were missions-only I'd have no interest in it at all. But I can't stay entertained just mucking around for long. It quickly starts to feel hollow, futile, random. It really hurts that respawning at the hospital costs money. Great satire on American healthcare, guys, but kind of discourages the spirit of experimentation and fun your game is built on. Money isn't tight if you're doing regular missions, but I've spent enough time mucking about since I last successfully completed one that I'm actually close to broke now. I've spent something like fifty thousand dollars on medical bills since my last job.

By: Alex Holland

Alex Holland — Thu, 08 May 2008 07:19:29 +0000

Having played much of GTA3 and GTA:VC on the original X-Box (with original fat bear controller), I must say that I find it more natural to aim a gun with a joypad than drive a car with a mouse, so I'd largely dismiss the console vs PC argument. I would say that with each port, more things tend to get fixed - the X-Box ports of the original GTA3 trio were more pleasant than their PS2 counterparts.

There were always crappy missions, mostly of the stupid-bullet-magnet-friendly-NPC variety, but most things I was prepared to accept in the name of amusing randomness - it's not as though dying actually has any genuine consequences, even in gaming terms, and I always made a point of having fun on my way back to the mission (or getting distracted and re-creating my youthful love of Chase HQ in the Vigilante mode).

GTA for me isn't about missions, it's about driving a burning ice-cream van off the top of a multistorey car-park, plummetting straight into the scattering of police cars stuck behind the tanker I abandoned straddling the dual-carriageway. For example.

By: Dan

Dan — Thu, 08 May 2008 02:59:50 +0000

You have a few good points, but at the same time.. you could blame your mistakes on noobness, once you get used to the controls most of those problems go away (bad starting spots and "enemies escaping" is always a problem though)

By: Cossak

Cossak — Wed, 07 May 2008 22:43:36 +0000

Definitely in agreement with you over the camera controls; they are fiddly at best and certainly not up to the standard of the rest of the game.

One thing I have found with the game that no one else has mentioned, is how unbelievably dark it is. As soon as the sun has gone down, and indeed well before this point, the light seems to be sucked out of New York as if a lid has been placed over the top of it. This was particularly bad during one mission where I had to kill a house full of people with 'Little Jacob'. After clearing the house, I emerged out of the back of the building and found myself completely unable to see anything, my TV screen was entirely black. After several minutes of trying to escape this light-less prison using only the minimap, I fell off a ledge and landed sandwiched between three walls in total darkness. I could only tell there were walls there because whenever I tried to turn the camera to find an exit it span wildly as it was pushed against the wall. After eventually finding some stairs back up to the ledge and finding the correct path back out, I emerged back into the semi-darkness of the street outside.

This problem may be related to the fact that I am playing on a non-HD TV, but even this is a non-excuse for some truly abysmal lighting in the engine.

By: Jason L

Jason L — Wed, 07 May 2008 19:34:57 +0000

A link to Quest Que C'Est, a previous discussion of all the mission stuff with regard to San Andreas: Quest Que C'Est?

By: Pentadact

Pentadact — Wed, 07 May 2008 18:47:57 +0000

Hermes, as I say in the post, I actually love the game. And as I said in the last post, I trust most of the reviews I've read. A few of the reviewers are friends of mine whose opinions I usually share. And nearly all the reviews mention more than one of my complaints.

Sir, you have incorrectly identified the horse upon which I am mounted, and I refuse to come down.

By: Pentadact

Pentadact — Wed, 07 May 2008 18:22:49 +0000

The wonky car-cam and horrible auto-aim would cease to be problems on the PC version, as in both cases it's easy to over-ride the game's bizarre idea of what you intend with a quick and precise mouse-movement. The thumbstick theoretically can do the same, but I'm nowhere near good enough with it to aim at someone manually before they shoot me, and trying to use both thumbsticks at once while driving - to keep the camera aligned with the direction I'm actually moving - is nearly impossible. I suspect even seasoned console gamers prefer not to do that, since most reviews mentioned how hard it is to aim a weapon and drive at the same time, which is essentially the same challenge. In fact, I seem to find that easier. Rob, a lot of people agree with you about the cut-scenes, but I just don't see it. I've watched the same argument between the same two characters so many times in some mission-sets that I've just started skipping them. The story they tell amounts to: person X is hot-headed, but person Y is more calm! Or person X is vain, and person Y is scared of him! This gets communicated to you the same way - an argument - three to five times, then one or more of the characters dies or betrays you, or simply stops giving you missions forever, and you move on to a completely unrelated pair of morons and their own ham-fisted personality clash. Dan, the difference between GTA and Half-Life in skipping-mission terms is that Half-Life is a linear journey, you're actually travelling forwards. If you jumped ahead, you'd lose your sense of where you were in the world and how you got there, and you'd miss out on all the sights and sounds in between. In GTA, the missions all take place in the city you already know, feature no new elements, seem to have nothing to do with one another and don't advance the plot. You could flag a couple as plot-critical, since one or two have featured actual events so far, but that's out of sixty missions I've done, all the rest of which were to kill someone who's never referenced before or since. The reason I want a skip mission cheat is only partly due to difficulty. The two missions I'm on at the moment I'm sure I'll complete next time I try them - each failure occurs when the mission parameters change without warning, and now I've memorised those changes and can prepare for them. But I don't want to. They're not challenging skills I have any interest in honing, or presenting obstacles that are fun to negotiate. It's not an interesting challenge to me. In one of the two, my task is to follow a train. I've failed it twice because I bumped into something I couldn't see, and couldn't catch up before the game pronounced that I had 'lost' the train. IT'S A FUCKING TRAIN. It's on rails. I don't think it ducked behind a bush or switched clothes and doubled back on me. I know where it's going - I could drive there right away, but that fails the mission too because doing so takes me outside the arbitrary 'follow' radius. Not an interesting challenge.

By: Iain "DDude" Dawson

Iain "DDude" Dawson — Wed, 07 May 2008 18:17:47 +0000

I still want to play this soooo bad. Just not as bad as I want to play MGS4...

My poor, money-less, console-less, life...